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【博雅双语名家名作】梁漱溟：这个世界会好吗（三）
这个世界会好吗？Has Man a Future? –Dialogues with the Last Confucian
作者简介：梁漱溟，著名思想家、教育家、社会活动家。
艾恺，美国哈佛大学博士，师从费正清、史华慈，当代最活跃、最有影响力的汉学家之一，芝加哥大学历史系教授。
内容简介：1980年美国汉学家艾恺采访中国著名的思想家、哲学家、现代新儒家的早期代表人物梁漱溟的谈话实录，并由艾恺译成英文；品评李大钊、陈独秀、毛泽东、周恩来、蒋介石、胡适等风云人物，回顾了任教北大、从事乡建运动、创建民主同盟等传奇经历。
My intercourse with Mao Zedong: different ideas of China’s future与毛泽东相交：对中国前途的认识
Liang: You know, I went to Yan’an in 1938, six months after the Marco Polo Bridge Incident and the outbreak of the war. Our dialogue began then. We both had a great desire to talk together, and both of us were very interested in each other’s ideas. Why did I go to Yan’an almost immediately after the war broke out? That was because after the Japanese came, the entire country collapsed. For example, right after the Marco Polo Bridge Incident, in the South in Shanghai, on August 13, a battle started. But we didn’t have any capacities of resistance. Shanghai fell, and we pulled back to Nanjing. Nanjing fell and we pulled back to Wuhan. In the North, Beijing and Tianjin fell. All of Shandong fell. People were running in all directions to get away from the Japanese. It was a complete collapse, as though no one was in charge. It was obvious that Chiang’s government had no way, no capacity to do anything about the situation. I was extremely disappointed in the performance of the Nanjing government.梁： 卢沟桥事变 6 个月我就去了延安，很早。从那个时候起，从那开头吧，好像彼此都很愿意谈话，彼此交谈都很有兴趣。我记得我第一次到延安，卢沟桥事件刚刚 6 个月，我为什么那么早去延安呢？就是因为日本人来了之后，全国有一种崩溃之象，北方就是卢沟桥七七事变，南方上海是“八一三”打起来。就是都不行了，上海退南京，南京退武汉，北京、天津都沦陷了，山东也沦陷了。全国人都是在逃难，你逃难，我逃难，大家各自逃难，崩溃，好像无主了。蒋的政府眼看没有什么能力，没有什么办法。我对他很失望，对南京政府很失望。
Alitto: Oh, because in those several months, the Japanese occupied a lot of places, and the Nanjing government had no way of stopping it, you went to Yan’an then….艾： 噢，就因为这几个月，日本人占领那么多地方，南京政府没有办法，您就到延安去
Liang: When we reached Wuhan, where the national government had retreated to, I got Chiang’s approval to go take a look at Yan’an. Before I visited Yan’an, I was extremely downcast and pessimistic. What to do perplexed me. Everyone was fleeing. The Nanjing government was totally incompetent.What to do? So, I thought I’d go see if the Communist Party had any way of dealing with the situation. So, with this mind, I went to see Mao, and found that Mao was not the least bit pessimistic. He told me, “China must undergo this great disaster. But the Japanese should not be joyful too soon. I expect they will be defeated.” At the time I went to see him, he was in the midst of writing “On Protracted War,” so he told me in effect the contents of his essay. He said that the Japanese had overrated their own strength. They were dreaming vainly of swallowing up China. A vain dream, a joke. China was a big country, too big, and Japan was just too small. Moreover, it wasn’t just a Sino-Japanese question. The world powers would not stand idly by and watch Japan annex China. “An unjust cause draws meager support. A just cause draws myriad support.” Later the world powers all stood againt Japan. 梁： 退到武汉的时候，我取得蒋的同意，我说我要到延安去看看。到延安去看的时候，我心里是很悲观的，不知道怎么好，大家都在逃难，南京政府毫无能力，怎么好啊？怎么办呢？我就想看看共产党是不是有办法，我就这样去。一去，看到他完全不悲观，我是悲观地去的，他告诉我：没有问题，中国非有这样一天不可，非有这样一个大灾难不可，不过日本人他不要高兴太早。这个时候，他正在写《论持久战》，把《论持久战》的话讲给我听，他说日本人是不自量，他想吞并中国，那是妄想、笑话。中国是大国，太大了，它太小了。也不是中日两国，世界列强不能看着日本人来侵吞中国。“失道寡助，得道多助”，后来列强都反对它。
…We of course had to discuss Old China, our view of it and our theories about it, and it was in this area that our opinions differed. The most important disagreement was on the question of class. He maintained that China had always had class struggle, and I said that in Old China, from the Qin-Han period on—we were unclear of the society before then, so I wouldn’t address it especially in the last 600 years since the Ming-Qing period, although there naturally were differences between rich and poor, there was circulation and communication between high and low (there was economic, social and political mobility). These distinctions were not like classes in the West, which were fixed and fully formed. In China, society and social groups were loose, unorganized and fluid. Because of this mobility, society was fluid and unorganized, and so the struggles were not all that intense or sharp. It was not a situation of two opposing classes—aristocrats versus serfs, as in the Western Middle Ages, or capitalists versus workers in capitalist society. China didn’t have any such thing. Chinese like harmony and compromise. Yes, there was struggle, but it was not habitual, nor did it have any great dynamic force. Mao could not completely deny this. We debated for a long time. 他对老中国的看法跟我的看法不一致。主要的一个问题是什么问题呢？就是阶级问题。他是阶级斗争，我就说中国的老社会，秦汉以后的社会，特别是从明代、清代 600年以来的社会——早的社会我们不太清楚、不大敢说——明清以来的这个社会，在我看，贫富贵贱当然有，可是贫富贵贱可以上下流转相通，它不是像外国那样的一个阶级——很固定，很成型，没有固定成型，而是上下流转相通。中国社会散漫，流转相通呢，它就散漫。散漫就斗争不激烈，不像两大阶级，一个贵族，一个农民或农奴——中世纪的，或者后来的资本主义社会——资本家跟工人两大阶级，中国缺乏那个东西。中国人喜欢调和，斗争还是有，不过不大习惯斗争，斗争的两面，强大的也没有。我说这个话，他也不能完全否认。
Finally he said, “Mr. Liang, you are overly emphasizing the peculiar, distinctive nature of Chinese society, but Chinese society is still a human society, and so still has its qualities which it shares with all human societies.” I answered, “I completely agree with you. I completely agree with you that Chinese society has qualities in common with other human societies, but I insist that its peculiar or distinctive features are more important. For example, let’s say we are speaking of a person. You say, I ‘know’ that person. Only if you can say what the special characteristic of that person is, what is distinctive about him, can you then say you ‘know’ him. If you speak about the person only from the aspect of his characteristics that he has in common with others—that he is a male, middle-aged, and so on, it won’t do. You must speak of his special features as an individual, and only then can you really know him.” So, I told Chairman Mao, “Your approach is not as good as mine. I grasp the special, distinctive features of Chinese society and so really know her better than you.” Well, because of this kind of disagreement, we reached an impasse, and our discussions were concluded.辩论很久了，他最后就说了：梁先生，你过分强调中国社会的特殊性，但是中国社会还是一个人类的社会，还有它的一般性嘛。我说对，你说的话，我完全同意。不过，正因为我完全同意你说中国有它的一般性，也有它的特殊性这样子，可是我要强调特殊性要紧。比如说，一个人，你说你认识这个人，你要说这个人的特色是怎么样一个人，那么算是认识了这个人。不能从“一般的”去说，说这个人是个人，或者这个人是个男人，这个人是个中年人，这都不行，你得说出这个人的特点，你才算是认识了这个人。因此，我说你这个不如我，我是抓住中国社会的特色的一面。谈话就结束了，说不下去了，一般性跟特殊性的比较是这样。
I am different from the others engaged in political activities. 我和其他政治活动家的不同
Alitto: Could you give your views on the relationship between the Democratic League, the smaller political parties, and the process of national construction?艾： 请您就民主同盟或者以前别的小的政党和国家建设之间的关系，或者重要性，作个评论。
Liang: I think that I am, and was, somewhat different from the others [non-Communist Party and non-Nationalist Party intellectuals who engaged in political activities]. Almost all the others vainly hoped for the establishment of British-style rule by political parties. That is, in the national assembly, there would be two large parties; when one was in power, the other would supervise the governance. If the party in power made any mistakes, or did something that was objectionable to the party out of power, the latter would then take power. So the two parties would take turns being in power. This is the situation in England, and to an extent, in the U.S.A. So the others all dreamed of establishing this kind of government. I said that this kind of government did not meet the needs of China, because economically, industrially in particular, China was so different from the Western countries. China was not an industrialized, developed country, so this kind of government would not work. China’s most urgent task was to develop economically as quickly as possible. In order to accomplish this, China needed a truly national, central political authority to adopt a fixed, definite guiding principle, a fixed course of action. This fixing of a definite course of action would be through a national governmental power or regime, and should maintain stability for several decades. Only in this way would China be able to develop economically and catch up with the foreign countries. So, I felt and feel that this alternating of political parties in power simply would not work because the national course of action would change whenever the other political party out of power came into power. So, today one policy, tomorrow another. That just won’t work. 梁： 我跟其他跟我以外的、搞政治活动的人有一点不同，就是他们几乎都是梦想英国式的政党政治：在议会里头主要是两个大党，这个党上台，那个党在底下，监督着这个政府；或者上台的那个，有什么做错的，或者不得人心的，下台，它就上去了，两党轮流执政，这就是英国的情况。我以外的人他们都是梦想这个东西。英国，美国也是两党。我就是说，这个不合中国的需要，因为中国在物质文明上、在经济建设上，主要说是在工业上，同国外比较，差得太远了，太落后了。这样一个太落后的中国，那非赶紧、赶快、急起直追，把这个缺欠把它补上去不成。要补上这个事情，必须是有一个全国性的政权，采取一定的方针路线，依靠这个全国性的政权，确定一个方针路线，几十年的稳定的局面贯彻去搞、去建设，才能够把那个补回来。不能够你上来，我下去，你上来，我下去，这样子就不行啊！这样今天是这样方针计划，明天又那样子，那不行。
I maintained this view consistently. The others all disagreed with me, as they all had in mind an Anglo-American style of a two-party political system. Later, the situation in China, astonishingly enough, ended up precisely the way that I thought it would.The Nationalist Party was driven out, and the Chinese Mainland was united. The CCP took power and did accomplish some things in these years. It’s too bad that during those decades of control, there were several periods of political and social turmoil. But now, it looks as though these periods of turmoil are over and will not recur, so that from now on China can stride forward rapidly. So, as I said, I am very optimistic about the future. This is my view, and this is my hope.所以我一个人总是梦想这个样子，可是旁人，就是说我以外的其他的党派，他们都不是这个意思，他们都是想学英、美，学两大党。可是后来嘛，局面居然落到我所想的，把国民党赶出去了，大陆上统一了，统一了，共产党掌握政权，一直掌握几十年，刚好做了不少事。可惜这里头还有些动乱，可惜在这个过去的30年里，还有些个动乱，可惜。可是看现在这个样子，动乱过去了，今后可以迈大步前进，所以我很乐观。这是我的一个看法，我的希望。
…For example, during the War of Resistance against Japan, I went rushing around between the two major parties to avoid civil war. Well, I did it. My plan was successful. I founded the Democratic League. Other people thought that I wanted to found a party, but that was not my intention. My own feeling was that China didn’t need any new political party, like America or England. So, although I founded the Democratic League, my purpose was for this organization to represent society in general, in between the two major parties, and to make the two parties compromise with each other and to further the war against Japan and the building of the nation. Finally, when I felt that the organization was no longer needed, I withdrew. So, the Democratic League and the China Democratic National Construction Association still exist, and I don’t belong to them.比如我本来抗战起来之后，就奔走于两大党之间，事情都做了，也还都算是顺利。发起民主同盟，旁人以为我是想搞一个党派，我的意思不是，我的意思是中国不需要什么党派，不像英国、美国那样。所以我虽然发起同盟，主要是在大党之间代表广大社会来牵扯着它们，不要它们两个打架、斗争，而推动或者抗战、或者建国。随后我觉得不需要了，我就退出了。现在民盟、民建都还有，我没有参加。
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《这个世界会好吗》（汉英对照）
梁漱溟 艾恺（著） 艾恺（译）
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