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【博雅双语名家名作】梁漱溟：这个世界会好吗（一）
这个世界会好吗？Has Man a Future? –Dialogues with the Last Confucian
作者简介：梁漱溟，著名思想家、教育家、社会活动家。
艾恺，美国哈佛大学博士，师从费正清、史华慈，当代最活跃、最有影响力的汉学家之一，芝加哥大学历史系教授。
内容简介：1980年美国汉学家艾恺采访中国著名的思想家、哲学家、现代新儒家的早期代表人物梁漱溟的谈话实录，并由艾恺译成英文；品评李大钊、陈独秀、毛泽东、周恩来、蒋介石、胡适等风云人物，回顾了任教北大、从事乡建运动、创建民主同盟等传奇经历。
My contact with Chiang Kai-shek我与蒋介石的来往
Alitto: You also had a lot of contact with him [Chiang Kai-shek], especially during the War of Resistance, and after it. You hadn’t met him prior to the war, had you?艾： 政治家蒋介石，您和他也有很多来往，尤其是在抗战的时候、抗战以后啊。抗战以前，就没有见过面吧？
Liang: No, because I never participated in government… I always worked in society.梁： 因为我始终是不参加政治，我始终在社会方面做事情。
Alitto: I know that in the 1930s, before the war, you didn’t seem to have a good impression of Chiang Kai-shek. I seem to recall that in your book The Last Awakening of the Chinese People’s Selfsalvation Movement, you compare Chiang with Yuan Shikai, saying that they were about the same, simply very successful warlords. I also remember that during the peace negotiations after the war you didn’t seem to like him very much, and blamed the continuation of the civil war on him. Did you make any other comments about him?艾： 我知道在 30年代，抗战以前，您对蒋介石也没有什么好的印象了。我记得您那个《中国民族自救运动之最后觉悟》书里面说，蒋介石是跟袁世凯差不多了，是军阀，就是比较成功的军阀了。也知道抗战以后，和谈、谈判的那个时候，也印象很不好，觉得就是因为他内战。另外呢，有没有什么别的
Liang: If we are going to talk about Chiang Kai-shek and me, we must start from an earlier period. I was in Shandong doing rural reconstruction at the time that Chiang was in Wuhan in what he called his Bandit Extermination General Headquarters. The “bandits” referred to the Communist Party. As he was stationing troops in Wuhan, he reorganized the Wuhan Provincial Government. He wasn’t very satisfied with the original administration, [so he] had Zhu Jingnong appointed as the Superintendent of Education for Hubei. Zhu had studied in the U.S., and had specialized in education. But Zhu was the president of Cheeloo (Qilu) University in Jinan, Shandong. A church ran this university. He had to resign his position as president and then take up the position as Superintendent of Education. So, he went from Wuhan back to Jinan. Chiang asked him if he knew Liang Shuming. Zhu answered that he did know me. Chiang said, “When you go back to Jinan, ask him to come to Wuhan to meet me.” Zhu returned to Jinan and resigned his university presidency. He saw me in Jinan, and relayed Chiang’s invitation to me. I told him, “OK, I have the message.” But I didn’t go. I couldn’t bring myself to go just because he had sent someone with this one sentence. This was the first contact that I had with Chiang. 梁：谈到我跟蒋，我要从头说起了。还比较早的时候，我在山东做我的乡村建设工作。刚好啊，蒋本人住在武汉，他叫做“剿匪总司令部”——“匪”嘛就是共产党。因为他自己驻军在武汉，他就把武汉省政府改组，原来的省政府他认为不大满意，他就改组。改组嘛，他就用一个姓朱的，叫做朱经农，也是留美的，学教育的。他就改组湖北省政府，湖北省政府里头有教育厅了，他就用这个朱经农做湖北教育厅厅长。可是朱呢，原来是在山东济南做齐鲁大学的校长，齐鲁大学是个教会办的学校，所以他需要辞齐鲁大学校长，来接任湖北教育厅长，所以他就从武汉回济南。回济南的时候，蒋就对朱经农说：“你认不认识那个梁某某人呢？”朱说：“认识呀。”他说：“你替我说一句话，希望梁到武汉来跟我见面。”那么这个朱经农他回去，到济南交卸齐鲁大学校长，在济南看到我，他就把蒋的话传达给我。我说：“好，我知道了。”但是我不去，我不能够因为他派人传这么一句话，我就自己去呀，我不去。这是头一次。
I had contact with him next in Nanjing, when the Second Interior Affairs Conference was held to discuss the internal affairs of the whole nation. The Ministry of Interior Affairs convened this conference. The Minister was a Guangxi native, Huang Shaohong. He was eager to adopt innovative and new programs and policies. He wanted to use measures superior to and also inclusive of rural reconstruction, which he called county government reconstruction. This would include the county level and the countryside below the county. At this conference he presented his plans. So he invited me and my colleagues working in Shandong, as well as Yan Yangchu, to attend as specialists this conference in Nanjing to help his program of county government reconstruction. So, because of this matter I traveled to Nanjing.后来，刚好在南京开第二届内政会议，讨论全国的内政，这个是归南京的内政部召集的。这个时候内政会议的部长是广西人，叫黄绍 。那么他很想办一件新的，采取新的方针、新的政策，他就要搞在乡村建设之上的、而又包含乡村建设的，他叫做县政建设——一个县，县以下是乡村了，所以是县政建设，县政建设是包含乡村建设的。所以他开这个内政会议要提出这个方案来，就把我们搞乡村建设的人——也包含了我，包含了我们山东的朋友，还包含了晏阳初——都找到南京来，作为是一种专家，参加他那个内政会议，来把县政建设的计划搞好。这个时候我到了南京了，为这个事情到了南京了。
At that time, the mayor of Nanjing city was an old friend of mine. This man [Shi Ying], was a veteran, an old friend of Sun Yat-sen’s. He was old, quite a bit older than I. When only 19 years old, he won the Juren degree, and after that studied chemistry in England. Mr. Cai Yuanpei engaged him as a professor of chemistry at Peking University. He had helped Sun Yat-sen while abroad, an old friend of Sun’s. At the time he was mayor of Nanjing city, and also a friend of mine, since we had both been teaching at Peking University. Mr. Shi came to see me at the Central Hotel [where I was staying]. He said, “Chiang Kai-shek had wanted to meet you and you didn’t come. Now that you are already here in Nanjing, you must see him.” I answered that I would see him. Mr. Shi was mayor, so later he called Chiang’s secretary to arrange a time, the evening of a certain day. Mr. Shi came in his car to pick me up for the appointment at Chiang’s official residence. This was the first time I met Chiang Kai-shek.到了南京呢，这个时候的南京市的市长是我一个老朋友。这个人（指石瑛）是老资格，他跟孙中山是朋友，岁数很大，比我们都大，他是一个在清朝已经中了清朝的举人的，念那个老书啊，中了举人的。中了举人呢，年纪还很轻，他只有19岁，他又到英国去留学，到英国去留学，学化学；学化学回来之后，蔡元培蔡先生请他在北京大学做教授，做理科化学教授。他在国外很帮助孙中山，跟孙中山是一辈的老朋友。这个时候做南京市的市长，跟我也是朋友，我们在北京大学在一起。他到中央饭店、旅馆来看我，他说：你既然到了南京了，以前蒋介石想跟你见面你不去，那你到了南京了，你不可以不跟他见面了。我说好，那么这个样子他作为市长跟蒋的秘书、副官通电话，约好了时间，某一天的晚上，事先是坐着汽车接我一同到“委员长官邸”，去跟蒋见面。这个时候是我第一次跟蒋见面。
Even from the very outset, at this first meeting, I didn’t like him. Why? He was insincere and false. He had heard, he said, that I was very famous and had wanted to meet me. He wanted me to come see him, but I had been unwilling. This time Mr. Shi had made the arrangements and brought me to see him, and so on. How was he insincere and false? He held a pen in his hand—a fountain pen, and also a little notebook. When we were talking—naturally we were just talking at random—I do not remember how I happened to bring it up, that at the time the Jiangbei area—northern part of Jiangsu and part of Anhui—had suffered a great flood, and the damage was quite heavy. A friend of mine was doing relief work in the area. I just don’t remember how it came up but I did mention this man’s name and his work in disaster relief. As soon as he heard this, Chiang said, “Very good. What is the name of your friend?” He handed his pen and his notebook to me and said, “Write his name down.” Of course I wrote my friend’s name. It looked very insincere to me, a show of, as we say, “being modest and respectful before a scholar” [lowering oneself before the scholars]. It had the appearance of modesty and respect, of paying great attention to what I said. Sitting there and acting as though he didn’t hear the name clearly—so you “write his name down.” Actually, his secretary was sitting there in any case, he also wrote down the name. He didn’t have to have it written down for him. So, in general, this first meeting with Chiang left me with a very bad impression, and gave me the feeling that he was insincere and false.可一见面我印象就不好。怎么样不好呢？就是他虚假。他以前听说我很有名，想要和我见面，要我去我不想去。这次嘛，石先生陪着我来看他了，约好了见面了，他怎么样子虚假呢？他就手里拿一个笔，也是自来水笔，手里拿个本子，谈话的时候——当然随便谈了，我不知道我怎么样子提起来，那个时候啊江北——江苏北部，包括安徽——有水灾，灾情很重，我一个朋友就在那儿做救灾工作，不知道怎样提到这个事情。提到这个事情，我就提到负责救灾工作的那个人的名字了，他就说：“哦？很好，你这个朋友叫什么名啊？”他把那个本子、笔递给我：“你写下来。”我当然给他写下来了。他这个人就看出来有一种虚假，虚假就是“谦恭下士”，很谦恭的样子：你的话我很注意，你说那个人名，你写给我看。自己拿着本子、自己拿着笔，好像听不清楚，你再写一下。其实他另外有个秘书啊，坐得稍微远一点，也记了，不一定他再记。大体上说这次是头一次见面，头一次见面就是我感觉他虚假。
After this, of course, I met him many times. At the time of this first meeting, the Japanese hadn’t invaded China yet. Later, the War of Resistance began. In the North it was the Marco Polo Bridge Incident of July 7 and in the South the August 13 Incident, which forced Chiang to resist Japan. He had no choice. It was with the Xi’an Incident that he decided to abandon the civil war and resist the Japanese. The national government felt the need for the support of society as a whole. The government itself could not resist Japan all alone. So it established a Political Consultative Conference within the Supreme National Defense Conference and invited persons from non-official circles who could represent society, people of some prestige, to be members of this body. I was also appointed to this body. The first time I met Premier Zhou Enlai was at these meetings of this body. At this time, there was in principle a cooperative union between the CCP and the Nationalist Party for resistance against Japan. Actually, it was the CCP that was advocating for resistance against Japan with no more civil war at the beginning. But the Chinese Communists did not by any means participate in the national government, so how did the two parties join hands to resist Japan? It was in this consultative conference and the Supreme National Defense Conference. At this time the name list of the conference had Mao’s name on it, but Mao never attended. Zhou attended. So, the first time I met Mr. Zhou was there at those meetings.以后就见面机会很多，因为这个时候日本人还没有来中国、侵略中国，后来不是抗日了？抗日一起来，北方就是“卢沟桥七七事变”，南方是“八一三”，这个时候蒋被逼迫着不得不抗战了。不是有个“西安事变”？他决定放弃内战，抗日。那么“八一三”打起来了，国民政府感觉到需要广大社会支持政府，不能单单是政府抗日啊，需要广大社会的支持啊，所以就在“国防最高会议”之内成立一个“参议会”，请社会方面的人，能够代表社会的、在社会上有资望的，来做参议会的参议员，那么我就被聘当参议。这个时候可以说一句话，就是我跟周恩来第一次见面就在这个地方，因为这个时候算是国共合作、一同抗日。本来是中共要求抗日嘛，不要打内战，共同抗日，可是中共方面并没有参加国民政府，怎么样子两党能够携手抗战？就是在这个参议会，在国防最高会议里头参与抗日的事情。这个时候名单上发表的有毛泽东，而毛没有来，周来，所以我跟周公第一次见面是在这个地方见的面。
Who else participated in the meetings? Huang Yanpei, who was famous in the Shanghai region. Shen Junru, who had just been released from detention, was also there. Shen was a member of the National Salvation Society, which advocated for an end to civil war and resistance to Japan. He had been arrested and kept in prison in Suzhou, for Chiang had felt that “you were all going with the Communists.” But at this time, the two parties had started to cooperate, so the “Seven Gentlemen,” Shen included, were released, and they participated in the Political Consultative Conference. Hu Shi also participated, and so did Zhang Boling of Nankai University, the great military scholar Jiang Fangzhen and the famous Peking University scholar Fu Sinian, andso on. They also found people familiar with diplomacy, for linking up internationally with allies against Japanese. So, because of this, they asked Yan Huiqing and Shi Zhaoji to participate too. They also asked several Nationalist Party veterans who had long been alienated from the Nanjing government, such as Ma Junwu, a Guangxi native. All were asked to participate in the Political Consultative Conference under the Supreme National Defense Conference.那么参议会里头找来的还有些个什么人呢？有黄炎培，在上海一带很有名的；有刚刚放出来的沈钧儒，沈钧儒是救国会了，救国会就是主张赶紧抗日、不要打内战的，本来他都是把沈钧儒扣在苏州监狱里边，他认为你们是跟共产党跑的，可是这个时候两党合作都要抗日了，所以把沈钧儒（等）“七君子”都放出来，放出来也参加这个参议会；还有社会有名的人——胡适、天津南开大学的张伯苓，还有一个有名的军事学家叫蒋方震，还有北大学生里头很出名的傅斯年，如此之类。他还找一些通习外交的人，这个时候抗日根据国际（形势）要采取联系，所以他就把颜惠庆、还有一个施肇基都请来。国民党的老辈，久已跟南京政府很疏远了，可是国民党的老辈，像是那个马君武，广西人，都请来，这个就叫做“国防最高会议参议会”。
At this time, my contact with Chiang increased somewhat from this conference on. Chiang was busy with directing military operations, however, and so Wang Jingwei was chairman of the conference. We held all of our meetings at night, because the Japanese planes were bombing. Wang presided over meetings, as Chiang was very busy with military affairs. At the end of a meeting, Chiang dispatched a secretary of his to see me, and said that Chairman Chiang [as Chair of the Military Affairs Committee] invited me to go to his official residence the next morning at a certain time to talk, e.g., 8 o’clock. I agreed to see him, of course. The secretary approached me right as I was coming out of the meeting hall together with Jiang Fangzhen, so Jiang Fangzhen knew that I would be seeing Chiang the next morning. So he said to me, “When you see Chiang tomorrow, tell him that I want to go to Shandong to inspect matters related to defense.” I agreed. So, when I was meeting with Chiang, I told him this on behalf of Mr. Jiang Fangzhen. Chiang agreed, and asked me to go together with Jiang Baili [Jiang Fangzhen’s sobriquet] to Shandong.这个时候是我跟蒋接触稍微多一点的时候，从这儿来的。我现在就是在这个会议上，蒋嘛因为他要指挥军事了，军事上忙得很，所以这个会是汪做主席。我们开会都是在夜间开会，为什么呢？因为日本的飞机都来轰炸了。因为汪主持这个会，蒋自己忙军事，很忙，就在我们开会的时候，蒋派一个人，派一个他的秘书吧，来在我们散会的时候看我，说蒋委员长请梁先生明天早晨几点钟，比如 8 点钟，到官邸见面。那么我当然答应了。这个时候我刚好从会里跟蒋方震一起出来，蒋方震当然就知道我明天要见蒋了，蒋方震就对我说，明天你去跟蒋见面的时候，你替我说，我愿意去山东，去山东看一看山东的防务、国防。我说好，所以等到我跟蒋见面的时候，我就替蒋方震说了这个话。他说很好，就请你——就请我啊，你陪着蒋百里先生（蒋方震字百里）去山东视察。
编辑推荐：
他只有中学文凭，却被蔡元培请到北京大学任教；
他成长于京城，却长期致力于乡村建设；
他一生研究儒家学说，然而内心向往佛家生活……
“梁先生有些类似于甘地这样的圣者，通过自己的不断奔走感化大地，于改造人生与社会中践履一己的感悟”
《这个世界会好吗》（汉英对照）
梁漱溟 艾恺（著） 艾恺（译）
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